Fruitbat's questions and email from the Token

[Mikado14]

I am posting an email sent some time ago that was made by fruitbat. Also, he made some questions that I refused to answer since he was not a member and told him that if he wished to discuss, then join. I believe I will post the email I received and will refer his questions.

----- Original Message -----
From: xxx@yahoo.com
To: kim_c58
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 5:10 PM


Re: A" lifter" is not the "disc"
by fruitbat » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:17 pm

Oh dear,

Is it just me being obtuse, or are we still no where closer to being able to define the dangers to, and work up a mitigation strategy for those who wish to work with lifters?

IF it were just me being silly then of course I could stop, but last time I looked J Naudin had recorded around 10,000 sucessful replications, if all those people are growing a cancer shouldn't something be done about it? As you point out quite accurately, I do not have much of an undertsanding about the mechanism of gravity, indeed I personally currently subscribe to a little known and quite obscure idea that gravity is in fact a result of the intrinsic nuclear dynamics of an item of substance (mass) becoming upset by close proximity to a much larger item of substance, giving rise to an intrinsic impulsion resulting the smaller item moving towards the more massive item. I also am curious about the part that electrical charge may or may not play in such a process. So my lack of knowledge and understanding is a given.

However, I am not "ignorant" when soemone such as DAvidB throws a new idea or data point at me, such as "a charged up lifter may give you cancer" I do not IGNORE that data, but nether do I BELIEVE it without subjecting it to critical review. It is for this reason that I have asked you to supply further data relevant to the conditions that apply in my workshop. There is no strong source of E/M in my workshop, indeed, I cannot get a reliable cellphone signal in it, so the previous mobile phone related information that I was misdirected towards to is not particularly relevant, nor are the linesman related statistics.

I appreciate for many of you who's journey (presumably) has taken you far past the point where I am at, the "lifters" may indeed be an irrelevance, but for many of us, there are still questions that remain unanswered, and it is in this vacuum of facts and miasma of misinformation that we toil. (well others may "toil", me, I just do it when I feel like it for the joy of the work and the discoveries). Only yesterday someone questioned the inaccurate doctrine that states that a lifter will produce lift in the same direction irrespective of the polarity of the supplied electricity. Why that particular untruth is promoted so assiduously I cannot tell, but if I had not actually done the work myself, I would not be in such an unassailably strong position to set the record straight. (In my lifter the force vector reveses it's direction 180 degrees when you swap the supply wires over, but the magnitude of the reversed force is very much reduced. My measuring rig only resolves down to 10 milligrams, so I prefer to leave the quantifying and subsequent mathematics to others, who may have better equipment and aptitude for fine detail). If other people had not also done work in the field we would still have to be putting up with the silly "ion wind" story. In truth, there is much so work to be done all over this field that it's evident that we need MORE people building and working with lifters, not less.

Your warning is vague and proving to have little substance to back it up David.

The only practical safety advice you seem to have available to mitigate the alledged risk is to "stop doing the work" and not stand too close to the device when it is running.

I choose to ignore the first, and of course I am already doing the second.

That surely has to be the end of this particular conversation. I am personally a little disappointed that no actual useful information has come from it, that can be of assistance to myself or others, except the oft repeated advice of "don't waste your time" with lifters. I wonder how many times Otto Lilenthial, George Cayley or the Wright Brothers heard a similar refrain?

I think I'll take Lindas advice. "Shut up and build something". :c)

FB.

And then his question:

And (just in case this is my last posting), would you be kind enough to explain (as if to a child) what is the big deal about the gravitor?
IN comparison the "lifter" clearly lifts slightly more than it's own weight, so the potential is obvious, but as far as I can discern the gravitor has a lousy power to weight ratio, so can I ask why it is of such great interest?

viewtopic.php?p=31902#p31902

I will be answering and making comment shortly.

Mikado

[Mikado14]

I wish to address this statement first.

However, I am not "ignorant" when soemone such as DAvidB throws a new idea or data point at me, such as "a charged up lifter may give you cancer" I do not IGNORE that data, but nether do I BELIEVE it without subjecting it to critical review. It is for this reason that I have asked you to supply further data relevant to the conditions that apply in my workshop. There is no strong source of E/M in my workshop, indeed, I cannot get a reliable cellphone signal in it, so the previous mobile phone related information that I was misdirected towards to is not particularly relevant, nor are the linesman related statistics.

"A charged up lifter may give you cancer". Actually, it depends, and mostly on your point of view of the facts. The operation of a lifter, which you very well know, has the negative applied to the upper element/cathode/corona wire. The skirt/anode/positive element is charged with the positive. The resultant effect is to charge the air with negative ions. Negative ions have been attributed to healthful benefits.

http://www.negativeionsinformation.org/ ... _ions.html

Reversing the polarity to the lifter will cause the air to be charged with positive ions. Positive ions have been found to create free radicals in the body/bloodstream. From what I have read and understand, it is not the positive ions that cause cancer as much as they create an environment that will increase the chances of cancer to occur.

My take on wdavidb is that he is an alarmist. Negative ions occur in nature and this is why going to the mountains or to the shore where they are more prone to occur make us feel better. Many studies have been done on the effect of negative ions from reducing hypertension to helping to cure cancer, asthma and bronchitis or in short, the elimination of free radicals in the bloodstream. If he is talking about a lifter creating positive ions then my answer would be that there would be cause to be concerned but it doesn't mean that I would stop experimenting.

When operating a lifter with the negative to the corona wire, the air is charged as I mentioned with negative ions, what did you feel when you did this? When you reversed the polarity, what did you feel?

This my opinion based upon the facts and experience.

Mikado

[Mikado14]

And now this:

I appreciate for many of you who's journey (presumably) has taken you far past the point where I am at, the "lifters" may indeed be an irrelevance, but for many of us, there are still questions that remain unanswered, and it is in this vacuum of facts and miasma of misinformation that we toil. (well others may "toil", me, I just do it when I feel like it for the joy of the work and the discoveries). Only yesterday someone questioned the inaccurate doctrine that states that a lifter will produce lift in the same direction irrespective of the polarity of the supplied electricity. Why that particular untruth is promoted so assiduously I cannot tell, but if I had not actually done the work myself, I would not be in such an unassailably strong position to set the record straight. (In my lifter the force vector reveses it's direction 180 degrees when you swap the supply wires over, but the magnitude of the reversed force is very much reduced. My measuring rig only resolves down to 10 milligrams, so I prefer to leave the quantifying and subsequent mathematics to others, who may have better equipment and aptitude for fine detail). If other people had not also done work in the field we would still have to be putting up with the silly "ion wind" story. In truth, there is much so work to be done all over this field that it's evident that we need MORE people building and working with lifters, not less.

First of all, it is a "silly ion wind". There are plenty of sources on the Internet along with the subsequent math to support this. It has been referred to as a "plasma drive" by some.

As to reversing the polarity of the elements, it will function. The efficiency of that has a good deal to do with the gauge of the corona wire and the shape and style of the skirt or lower element. Just because your personal findings/experimentation doesn't support this, I would suggest that you may wish to experiment with changing the gauge of the corona only and constructing data charts. Repeat the process except change the surface area of the lower element and chart the data. Take all the variations from above and just change the distance between the elements, chart the data. And when you are all done with that, repeat with reversed polarity. You will find a variation where the efficiency in either polarity arrangement will increase or decrease and that reverse polarity will be close to forward polarity but not equal to it. Experiments performed on this end found that reverse was about 90% of forward. In our opinion, that is not what we would call "greatly reduced".

I believe that you honesty believe when you state - "Only yesterday someone questioned the inaccurate doctrine that states that a lifter will produce lift in the same direction irrespective of the polarity of the supplied electricity. Why that particular untruth is promoted so assiduously I cannot tell, but if I had not actually done the work myself, I would not be in such an unassailably strong position to set the record straight." I am sure your data sets substantiate exactly what you are saying but there are those who can prove differently based upon work that they did themselves.

Is the lifter an example of the Biefeld-Brown effect? In some respects yes, it is an asymmetrical capacitor that is using a fluid dielectric whereas a force gradient is causing the dielectric to be replaced to due movement. It is more EHD than BB effect. The K of air and vacuum are so close that if you had a vacuum chamber, you could easily test the fact that the lifter would create some force but the true effect of the lifter is the plasma (ion wind). Not having a vacuum chamber to test a lifter, I would make a statement based upon existing data and that would be that a lifter will not produce the lift in a vacuum that it will produce in the atmosphere since it is primarily an EHD pump. The only component that will present itself in a vacuum would be the BB effect and that would be slightly less than what its gradient would be in the atmosphere due to the difference of K between vacuum and air.

Can this be adapted to a commercial use? Don't know but there would be hell to play getting it in the market place due to the Voltages involved.

Mikado

[Mikado14]

And hopefully, an answer from a question long ago, that will satisfy curiosity to some extent.

And (just in case this is my last posting), would you be kind enough to explain (as if to a child) what is the big deal about the gravitor?
IN comparison the "lifter" clearly lifts slightly more than it's own weight, so the potential is obvious, but as far as I can discern the gravitor has a lousy power to weight ratio, so can I ask why it is of such great interest?

So far in my previous posts, I have been trying to answer in simple terms as you requested once before in the above from the Kilroy thread. I will endeavour to do so with this as well.

The Gravitor is a big deal, at least to me. It is as much a big deal as the Inductor is to me. Primarily, the Inductor is nothing more than a wire that is coiled, either around a core of paper or other material or just plain nothing (air). We more than likely have all done this either in a science class in school, a project with the Boy Scouts, just plain playing around or watching a program on TV geared to teaching young minds. We also would know that if we hook up the wires on either end of the coil to a battery (source of current) that a current will flow and cause a magnetic field to be produced and we generally call this an electromagnet.

However, there is a good deal more taking place in that coil than just it being an electromagnetic. For a brief instance, there is an opposition to the current flowing through the coil. Also, the gauge of the wire, the number of turns, the diameter of the core all contribute to the strength of the electromagnet as well as to what that opposition will be.

The Gravitor, is a Capacitor, pure and simple. The construction of a Gravitor varies from a capacitor in that it is not rolled and must be two plates separated by a dielectric. Simply, it is two plates with a dielectric between. An Inductor creates a magnetic field from the electricity applied to it and in the case of the Gravitor (Capacitor), it will create a gravity field. So, the Inductor creates electromagnetism and the Gravitor creates electrogravity.

Just as in the Inductor, characteristics of the construction of the Gravitor will affect what it does. So, if the plate area is changed, it's thickness, the distance between the plates and then if the dielectric is changed, all will contribute to changing the amount of electrogravity produced.

The major difference between the two is that as long as the current is applied in the electromagnet, the magnetic field will stay due to the current flowing. In the Gravitor, the current only flows for a brief instant and the electrogravity field produced is only for a brief instant. Both instances are correct for current is flowing producing work. Some individuals have reported that when the Gravitor is charged, it will continue to create the gravity field. So far, we have found that to be not true for once the Gravitor is charged it is nothing more than a Capacitor. It is the charging of the Gravitor that creates the imbalance in the dielectric that produces the gravity field.

The above is about simple as I can put it. In both examples, I am referring to DC current only.

In the case of the lifters, you state the obvious in that it does lift beyond it's own weight. Will a Gravitor do that? Not as of yet but it is not too far off but the real question is...does it need to? You state in your question that it's potential (the lifter) is obvious. Is it? Do you think that it will be able to lift it's own power supply? I don't. If I may put forth a simile, saying the lifter has potential, in a commercial manner, would be like Ben Franklin saying the kite has commercial applications someday. Now that is not said as a put down in any manner but as a qualifying statement in that there are limitations to a lifter just as there are for a kite. If a kite is large enough, it can pick up a load greater than itself. If a lifter is large enough it too can pick a load. Is it possible that someday, a breakthrough in materials may alter that? Yes, anything is possible for time marches on and the imagination of those that come after us is the only limitation.

In the same question you asked about mendacity, remember? You asked if I ever recognized it in myself. The truthful answer is yes. I have been mendacious in times past. Like when my Mother asked if I thought her new hat was pretty or when my ex-wife had asked me about a dress, being mendacious was well worth the smile I saw on both and if that is a sin...I am guilty. But one person I have never been mendacious to is myself, in fact, I am my worst critic.

I hope I have answered some questions for you. You may ask why I decided to post. Let's just say, it was the universe that made me do it. You and someone else were on my mind as I awoke the other day. Well just leave it as....it was something that needed to be done or said. I know what it is to die and in doing so, I know what it is to be on the other side and have regrets and what I brought back is that there are times when you must say what you must say. If it is to tell the person that you love them, do so. Tell a person that you have a problem with them and you wish to straighten it out or just move on....or even to answer a simple question put forth by someone.

Best to you in what you do and one last thing, imagine how much further you would be if you took the hand I extended to you. I extend peace to you.

Mikado

(PS: in the above I did not discuss the hypothetical connection to the aether in either the Inductor or the Gravitor.)

[Mikado14]

Received an email today of a post, or should I say excerpts from posts, whereas either Linda or the Yorkie, are posing questions in regard to my work and working with others etc. I have decided to post this under this topic since it does involve something tangible. Also, since the original posts came up on the Token and from what I have seen, fruitbat is the one there most interested in science that has a relationship to Brown's work.

A question has been raised as to if I am aware of others that are working on Browns' work. Of course I am but then only those that have posted anything or published anything that would show up on the Internet. I truly believe that the manner that the universe works, there are many working on the same or similar projects. Almost as if, someone puts their idea upon a sea comprised of waves of psychic origin. There are those that have the ability to tune into these waves and in some of those, they are able to decipher the information. Some can only go so far but then there are those select few who can take what they receive and run further with it. So, with that said, yes, I believe there are other's working on Brown's work.

However, I believe there is a mental speed bump. This work has been studied, from what one can read on the Internet, to death. I have a paper on PDF that I downloaded of a patent on an asymmetric drive (thruster). If one looks further, they are being used on satellites for positioning. How successful they are or how much in service they are I don't know, provided that the document I downloaded is correct but then we all know the old adage...."It must be true for I read it on the Internet!"

If the anonymous emailer is correct, the question has been raised about my working with others. I don't know how true that is. Maybe the question is being raised because I am not working with anyone connected with Linda et al. So, is this what is meant that if I am not working with someone who is connected with Linda...or....what I am working on and those involved are not making it public....then and therefore....I am not working with others? Hope that made a modicum of sense but in short, if my group and those involved choose to not make anything public qualifies as not working...guess we or I are not working. But perhaps we are doing what most others do....work in private on our chosen path of research and experimentation and will make an announcement when the time is appropriate. Now, which does anyone who may be giving their valuable time to read this think would be more advantageous to myself...or would that be to Linda?

And one other item that not only came up in this email but also in a conversation over the weekend. Actually, the conversation came after the date on the post. It would appear that Linda has been claiming to be present for an experiment and if not for her performing "something" behind the backs of those that were in attendance, there would have been no results. That is an out and out lie. Linda was NEVER present for any experiments. What she was present for was nothing more than a serendipitous event in which a subsequent experiment was performed. It had nothing to do with a Gravitor as much as seeing a naturally occurring phenomenon that substantiated Brown's hypothesis in his Structure of Space. If anyone is truly interested, just ask. I might just post the results.

Mikado

[Fruitbat]

Thank you very much Mikado.

Plenty of food for thought. I'm not sure what you were referring to when you describe capacitors as being "rolled". Most of the ones I have seen have been of the plate type.

As for a lifter lifting eventually being capable it's own PSU, it's a dead cert, whether it will be worth the effort of doing it, is a separate question...

Obviously if you are still minded to send me that PM you now have the capability, but bear in mind my concerns are not entirely selfish, and if you communicate anything I believe is in the public interest to share, that is my policy. Unlike most people I don't want to be a "keeper of the secrets".

I hope, I'll be able to contribute something good to your forum whilst I am here. Unfortunately, although I am not much better than anyone else at being "nice", that's what I will be aiming for. You and I it appears have a number of character traits in common, it will be interesting to see if we can put them to better use.

Fruitbat.

[Mikado14]

"Plenty of food for thought. I'm not sure what you were referring to when you describe capacitors as being "rolled". Most of the ones I have seen have been of the plate type."

I would recommend doing a google on "capacitor construction" under images and you will see. The Gravitor construction is similar to a ceramic disc construction. The problem with ceramic is that it has a high breakdown voltage but higher values of capacitance become extremely large and impractical.

"Obviously if you are still minded to send me that PM you now have the capability, but bear in mind my concerns are not entirely selfish, and if you communicate anything I believe is in the public interest to share, that is my policy. Unlike most people I don't want to be a "keeper of the secrets"."

I hope you understand the following. My intent was given to you via a private email or PM, I am not sure how they contacted you. I would have expected any communication to continue...privately. You could have easily sent me a PM in regard to such instead of posting on a public forum. So, how do I differentiate between what you will keep and what you will disclose? Some secrets are meant to be kept.

Stay as long as you wish, actually, you had me in stitches with some of your posts this morning. Glad to see you made grade. But let me say this. I do not wish to limit what individuals have to say. If you start a thread and no one answers, well, it doesn't mean you have to stop. Present your ideas for afterall, all bots are allowed access to this site and you never know who will do a google and they may very well find your posts and join to partake in a conversation. But then, there are those that may very well take up the challenge that are already here.

So, you can be nice, you can be brash, just argue without being derogatory for example, one item I will not tolerate is if someone is arguing on a serious note and they become derogatory to a persons name, family, race, religion to do nothing more than to hurt, I will not tolerate that...you can argue science, philosophy, religion etc but there is no need to alter a persons name, intentionally, or instigate an argument by using known information against them. There are ways to debate nicely and intelligently but we are all able to slip. So far, everything has been respectful if not honest. I appreciate honesty. For example, take Luis, he can be brash and direct but it has never been presented as derogatory (sorry Luis) but he is quite honest about himself and I accept him for what he is.

Anyway, welcome fruitbat and I too hope your time here is productive and enlightening.

Mikado

[Fruitbat]

OK. I think I got this a while ago actually, the gravitor seems to work best on a rising edge, so one would imagine that to get a decent continous linear output one is going to have to give it a sawtooth or "flyback" style waveform.

The problemo as I understand it, is that the gravitor likes very high voltages in comparison to my beloved lifter which starts doing it's thang at 8Kv and getting a sawtooth to do very high voltages is technically a bit problematic or as I like to call it "bloody expensive" if you try and buy your way out of the problem.

There is of course a cheap and cheerful way of generating your eht sawtooth if you need such a thing, up to and past (if neccesary) the mythical 200Kv mark. But maybe that isn't the problem.

I've no real idea of course, but I have formed the idea that the Gravitor can be made to produce more grams of thrust in a much smaller area than a lifter BUT since it's much heavier it's less likely to actually "fly".

I can see instantly why this system would suit a nuclear sub or large ship. But you still need more thrust without adding more mass before it will fly.

Have I got it right so far?

FB.

[kevin]

Excellent,
Just had a reply from Fred, who is looking after Himself , and fine.

Anyone ever seen the gravitor parts defy so called gravity without ELECTRICITY??????
No thing weighs anything.
Kevin

[Nancy_Hutchison]

"Plenty of food for thought. I'm not sure what you were referring to when you describe capacitors as being "rolled". Most of the ones I have seen have been of the plate type."

I would recommend doing a google on "capacitor construction" under images and you will see. The Gravitor construction is similar to a ceramic disc construction. The problem with ceramic is that it has a high breakdown voltage but higher values of capacitance become extremely large and impractical.

"Obviously if you are still minded to send me that PM you now have the capability, but bear in mind my concerns are not entirely selfish, and if you communicate anything I believe is in the public interest to share, that is my policy. Unlike most people I don't want to be a "keeper of the secrets"."

I hope you understand the following. My intent was given to you via a private email or PM, I am not sure how they contacted you. I would have expected any communication to continue...privately. You could have easily sent me a PM in regard to such instead of posting on a public forum. So, how do I differentiate between what you will keep and what you will disclose? Some secrets are meant to be kept.

Stay as long as you wish, actually, you had me in stitches with some of your posts this morning. Glad to see you made grade. But let me say this. I do not wish to limit what individuals have to say. If you start a thread and no one answers, well, it doesn't mean you have to stop. Present your ideas for afterall, all bots are allowed access to this site and you never know who will do a google and they may very well find your posts and join to partake in a conversation. But then, there are those that may very well take up the challenge that are already here.

So, you can be nice, you can be brash, just argue without being derogatory for example, one item I will not tolerate is if someone is arguing on a serious note and they become derogatory to a persons name, family, race, religion to do nothing more than to hurt, I will not tolerate that...you can argue science, philosophy, religion etc but there is no need to alter a persons name, intentionally, or instigate an argument by using known information against them. There are ways to debate nicely and intelligently but we are all able to slip. So far, everything has been respectful if not honest. I appreciate honesty. For example, take Luis, he can be brash and direct but it has never been presented as derogatory (sorry Luis) but he is quite honest about himself and I accept him for what he is.

Anyway, welcome fruitbat and I too hope your time here is productive and enlightening.

Mikado

Military has been using ceramics for anti-gravity for years.
Three spheres of barium titanate placed in specific position will self levitate.
and they are now way past barium titanate